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Teaspoon and slash: a pondering

  • Mar. 9th, 2008 at 11:59 PM
pontisbright: pontisbright (Default)

(Sorry for the borked formatting, LJ is chucking a mental)
I'm reccing at calufrax this week, and since calapine pointed out the tragically small number of slash recs so far, I'll be serving up an all-slash, all old-skool (or old/new crossover) selection of fics.

Finding stories has been interesting - possibly in a way which is just a reflection of my own reading habits - but it made me ponder.  My automatic reaction was to go looking for slash I'd already loved on LJ, in the hope that I'd find it at Teaspoon, with varying degrees of success.  Some people seem to upload everything they write as a matter of course, both to multiple comms and to Teaspoon: some stories only crop up on LJ (often in small comms, where there’s likely an small audience of familiar faces): some (especially older) fics are on knackered old geocities sites where the author has likely forgotten they’re even still there (and it’s only thanks to the likes of ghost2 and the who_otp Masterlist of Doooom that we ever find them again).

Conclusion: it seems as if a lot of writers of slash and femslash don’t use Teaspoon – or if they do, they’re selective about what they post there, especially with stories involving explicit sexual content. 

So, I’ve got two questions. One: is that accurate?  (I'm more than happy to be proved entirely wrong!)  And two: if I’m not just being crap, what’s the likely reasoning behind writers being selective at Teaspoon?  Is it the notion of small LJ comms being a cosy coterie – and if so, is that a lovely thing or a problem?  Readers, do you mentally categorize Teaspoon and LJ differently in terms of expectations?  Writers, are there some stories you’ve written that you feel are ‘more Teaspoony’ than others?    Can you unpick what your notion of ‘Teaspooniness’ is?

(Please note: this is in no way a dig at Teaspoon, which I love with a burny flamy love.  Nor a dig at LJ comms or individuals.  I know that some stories seem to have the best ‘fit’ in certain locations; some were written as commentfic or ficathon entries or in-jokes, and outside of that context they can read as oddities, weird deviations from the author’s usual style, or just plain incomprehensible.  And that’s before we get to the fics that we regret for one reason or another, and will happily let vanish in the LJ scroll (as much as anything ever can) instead of placing them somewhere more accessible like the ‘official’ fic archive.  It’s entirely up to you where you post your fic: I’m just curious about the reasoning, that’s all.)  

LJ – for any old thing, which you can pass off as just fluff if need be, but which can also result in nice quick feedback and the making of fannish friends
Teaspoon – for ‘proper’ fic which you’ve spent a bit of time over and reckon is worth showing to people outside LJ (despite the fact that you value the opinion of those on LJ more): feels a bit more detached from the audience
ff.net etc – not worth even looking at

Apologies for the tl;dr.  Am interested to know if other people's heads are quite so keen on compartmentalisation as mine, anyway...

 

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Comments

ext_6531: (Default)
[identity profile] lizbee.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 12:58 am (UTC)
I'm actually more likely to post my slash to Teaspoon than on LJ, as I have a few very good friends who aren't really comfortable with slash, and while I respect their ability to scroll past, I just ... feel better not putting it in front of them.

Um ... speaking as a Teaspoon mod, the slash I see is usually one of the big established pairings -- Doctor/Master, Doctor/Jack and Jack/Ianto. Everything else sort of bubbles under, and femmeslash is relatively rare.

I suspect, and others may thwap me if this is inaccurate, that the great rise of slash culture in fandom, and the concurrent emphasis on non-canon pairings, coincided approximately with the rise of LJ as the primary base for fannish activity. In all of my fandoms, those sorts of fics just don't get posted to major archives with the same frequency. Sometimes authors seem to equate all archives with FF.net; others just prefer to have more control over where their fic is, what the pages look like and who can read it. I don't know.

Teaspoon also has a greater proportion of male authors than a lot of fanfic archives. This might lead people to think slash is less welcome? I'm not sure, but I'd be curious to know.
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:09 am (UTC)
Ooh, interesting. I can see how that makes a lot of sense: it's technically a lot more anonymous than LJ where there's likely to be a degree of crossover with 'real' you and 'real' friends; with Teaspoon it's more possible to read various things without necessarily registering who wrote them in any meaningful sense, and without any of the fandom politics of which comm you're in etc.

Certainly LJ seems more 'friendly' to random pairings etc to me - but I don't know how much of that is just a self-perpetuating thing: I don't think of it as especially slashy, therefore it remains not especially slashy... And yes, perhaps DW as a fandom with a lot of blokes in it might have an influence. But maybe it is a cross-fandom thing as you say: LJ is the natural home of the marginal, and major archives just never will be. Interesting to consider how that migh affect the likes of OTW, if it ever happens.

*is even more curious now*

[identity profile] doyle_sb4.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:01 am (UTC)
I'm definitely a lot less likely to put fics that are a bit cracky or have odd pairings in them on the Teaspoon (and I'm a mod there, for heaven's sake...)
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:11 am (UTC)
That was always my thought. But why? How come somewhere that seems less personally attached to 'me' feels like a more troubling place to offer up the weird? Mabe it's just that 'don't know who's reading' thing, which is true of LJ but we sort of pretend it isn't, somehow.
[identity profile] livii.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:36 am (UTC)
I'm glad I was able to convince you to put the Rose/Benton, Harry/Martha up there then...that is my favourite fic, EVER. And now I can rec it next week, hurrah! :D

/spamming teh comments
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(no subject) - [identity profile] livii.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 03:33 am (UTC)
[identity profile] vandonovan.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:21 am (UTC)
I like to think I post to LJ and Teaspoon equally. The only thing that might not make it to Teaspoon are drabbles/ficlets that I wrote "off the cuff" and therefore don't like enough to bother adding elsewhere. But defintely all my proper fics should be on both. If they're not, it's just because I forgot.

I often forget to post to Teaspoon for a couple days after LJ, and I'd give up Teaspoon in lieu of keeping LJ if I had to make a choice, but I don't have any fears or anything about posting to one or the other.
[identity profile] wishfulaces.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:29 am (UTC)
Only a couple days? It's usually a couple months at least before I remember to get around to it...
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(no subject) - [identity profile] livii.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 01:38 am (UTC)
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:40 am (UTC)
Yep, I think you were one of the few people who seemed to post absolutely equally here and there. Yay!
(no subject) - [identity profile] vandonovan.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 01:41 am (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - [identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 03:06 am (UTC)
[identity profile] wishfulaces.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:28 am (UTC)
Huh. I've always felt perfectly comfortable posting slash to the Teaspoon--sure, most of it slips by with 0-2 comments or something (actually, most of my fic slips by with 0-2 comments but this might be because I continue to dabble in more obscure niches. Or I just suck at self-advertising), but it always seemed to be the Thing to Do. (Something which did not seem to be the Thing to Do when I still posted to ff.net, but I haven't done that in years.)

I kinda hate trolling the various comms where fic could go because personally I hate scrolling along my flist and seeing the same fic five times or more, so I try to post it just to my own LJ and one or two appropriate comms at most. (I just posted a fic involving both book and audio characters and posted links to it on [livejournal.com profile] henriettastreet and [livejournal.com profile] bigfinishlove, for example.)

Teaspoon was created to archive Who fic, for goddess's sake; it should bloody well be open to all fic. But I don't need to rant about the blasted thing.
[identity profile] livii.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:34 am (UTC)
Oh, not to jump in on you in comments, but - there's one story of yours missing from the Teaspoon that I wanted to be able to rec next week on [livejournal.com profile] calufrax - "Everybody Wants You", that one where Jack hilariously shags his way across canon (I just have to picture Harry wandering into the invisible spaceship and I start cracking up!) I have recced it on my recs website but linked to an LJ version only, and Calufrax is only for stuff on Teaspoon.

I agree with you on the appropriate comms thing; I try to post at two max, three in very rare cases if I'm trying to promote the ficathon it was for, or something. But sometimes that involves trying to figure out where the right audience is, and realizing you're probably losing some potential readers. Teaspoon is great because it is just there, and people can click or not click, as they wish.

The archive is certainly open to all fic, but these days it's just overwhelmed with certain pairings, unfortunately (a ton of Torchwood fic coming through the queue right now, actually, and I hate having to read them to validate them). All I can say is - everyone reading this, archive there! Archive your strange things and weird pairings and all sorts of great stuff!
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(no subject) - [identity profile] wishfulaces.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 02:32 am (UTC)
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:43 am (UTC)
Ooh: I wish to hear of your misadventures at The Pit now.

And Teaspoon does say it's for everything, and is for everything: I just wonder if there are lurking hang-ups there since I seem to have a few.
(no subject) - [identity profile] wishfulaces.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 01:48 am (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 02:52 am (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 03:30 am (UTC)
[identity profile] livii.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:29 am (UTC)
I use Teaspoon as a great big wonderful archive, so pretty much everything I write goes there, unless it was a comment!fic or one of my not-stories that I didn't bother to turn into something with a title, etc. Some people do use it as first reading, as well, so I get a handful of nice reviews there, usually, which is a bonus.

I did notice the lack of slash on [livejournal.com profile] calufrax so far; I posted on slash rec (aces' excellent Turlough/Five, Turlough/Ten AU); it got no comments on the rec and no new comments on the actual story. I highly suspect, therefore, that the audience for Calufrax is not made up of that many slashers. I'm hoping to post one more slash rec when I'm up for reccing next week again (though, like you, some things are simply not on Teaspoon, which makes it tricky), though then again, I'm just culling lazily from my recs website, and I realized I have a grand total of *three* slash recs on there. Oh, whoops. Clearly not my genre of choice...

What, me ramble back? Sorry.
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:46 am (UTC)
Rambling most welcome!

Sounds like my week's recs will go down like a lead balloon. 'Hey everyone, here's some random porn with characters you probably don't know!' Ah well, it's made me happy to read new things and rediscover some old ones.

And you should absolutely cull from Cloister Bell, for there is gorgeousness there.
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(no subject) - [identity profile] livii.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 02:24 am (UTC)
ext_17485: (Default)
[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 02:54 am (UTC)
I have done slashy recruiting, cause the proportions are just silly at the mo, 6 slash to 30 het and over fifty gen, IIRC.
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(no subject) - [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 03:31 am (UTC)
ext_1997: (Default)
[identity profile] boji.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:31 am (UTC)
what’s the likely reasoning behind writers being selective at Teaspoon?

Interesting question. When I wrote my first Jack/Doctor slash fic I put it up on Flexible and posted it to comms. Teaspoon was then all about Rose/Doctor and I didn't think slash would be welcome. Then, when Torchwood started it looked as if there was going to be a main fic archive and three of my fics were uploaded there, as well as x-posted to my LJ, but the archive died a death. As did Flexible.

And to me Teaspoon seemed to be a DW archive so... I didn't really think about it as a centralised archive. Factor in a bad browser experience trying to upload a fic to Wraithbait and there you have it. I was reticent about coding (possible differences between coding for LJ and elsewhere) and then it was the idea of uploading all the drabbles and fic again. *sigh*

It's been the practicalities for me, not fandom or any perception of types of readers and/or feedback.
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 01:52 am (UTC)
Hadn't thought about that angle at all: interesting. I've always thought the Teaspoon interface was massively better than most of the other big fandom archives: you can go back and edit, so even the occasional formatting issue is quite easily solved. Some places have this laborious system of things being uploaded by someone else, and then once it's up, tough shit if it looks like crap: maddening.

Someone asked the other day on [livejournal.com profile] torch_wood about a central fic archive for TW, and how there isn't really one. As you say, Teaspoon's available sort of by default, which might well be off-putting: 'all fics are welcome, but some are more welcome than others' kind of thing, maybe.
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(no subject) - [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 03:31 am (UTC)
ext_17485: (Default)
[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 02:55 am (UTC)
We love slash! Bring us your slash!
(Anonymous) wrote:
Aug. 29th, 2014 09:12 am (UTC)
ssjhhomek@gmail.com
A third man seemed to be wounded in the 2012 incident
[identity profile] snowgrouse.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 02:38 am (UTC)
Ooh. I dunno, maybe it's the different type of distribution. As in, on LJ you get clusters of people and comms around certain pairings, whereas with Teaspoon it's just this one big sea of... stuff. I don't discriminate that much, but I haven't bothered posting some drabbles or some of my ubercrap fics on Teaspoon, mostly because there isn't much point (either the drabbles are the sort of typical "pointing out the bleeding obvious" drabble, or the longer ones are just utterly rubbish). Personally, I tend to put my stuff into the archives almost as an afterthought, because you get so much more feedback on LJ. People actually talk to you! OTOH, I do like the read counter thingummy on Teaspoon, which I wish LJ had--I've really gone "WHAT THE FUCK?" at the amount of reads my fics have had. Which is, on one hand, really satisfying (yay readers!) and slightly depressing (oh, no comments, poo).

One thing I still need to figure out is why people love the fics I like the least, especially on Teaspoon and now Prydonian. The ones with the most cliches and the shakiest writing, with some really appalling confusing POV shifts and descriptions. And the fact that a crappy Ten/Master/Lucy threesome is getting fuckloads of reads, where I was under the impression that slashers run screaming from any mention of vag. I can maybe understand the popularity of Valeriana, as woefully old-fashioned as it is, because there isn't enough Five/Ainley out there (WHY, GODS, WHY? NEEDS MOAR). So, yeah. At least Teaspoon is making me go "WTF" at fandom, if nothing else...
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 03:01 am (UTC)
People actually talk to you! That's got to be the clincher, in the end. Pleasing as the stats are (even when they are really quite bizarre), that's the really joyous bit of fandom for me at least, and Teaspoon inevitably doesn't really facilitate that bit.

There really isn't enough Five/Ainley out there. You'd think Ten/Simm would prompt it, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. (Popularity of Valeriana = indication that people would read more hard slash of them if there only was more it, though?)

The 'people like this but I think it's a bit crap' thing is so confusing. It's like when people leave reviews which suggest they really didn't quite get what you were trying to do: it seems ungrateful to carp, but it's still this weird non-validation. Odd.
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(no subject) - [identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 09:48 pm (UTC)
ext_17485: (Default)
[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 02:48 am (UTC)
I stick everything up on the Teaspoon. Cause I like having a complete archive thingie. Unless it's something daft like comment!fic or a story in twenty words, that sort of thing. But it usually takes me a couple of weeks before I remember to upload there. And sometimes people will comment on the most random things or, in one mad and wonderful case, read about twenty of your fics and give you a nice bite of feedback on every one.
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 03:02 am (UTC)
Hurrah for the thorough and dedicated feedbacker! (And the thorough and dedicated writer too, natch: makes life easier for the rest of us, anyway.)
[identity profile] taleya.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 04:34 am (UTC)
There's a third option, that applies to me - I'm incredibly fuckin' lazy! I keep forgetting to get around to putting them up :D
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 09:51 pm (UTC)
*slaps you*

I was already pipped to the post with reccing that majestic post-Singularity one of yours. Then again, I'm trying very hard not to put Turlough into every single rec, since that's probably not really the done thing.

You should put things there, though. Then I will get to reread them and be gleeful, and this will prompt me to poke you about Time's Folly, which might result in more of it, and thus fandom shall be saved. Hurrah!
(no subject) - [identity profile] taleya.livejournal.com - Mar. 10th, 2008 09:55 pm (UTC)
[identity profile] rhube.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 09:35 am (UTC)
I've found as much slash at Teaspoon as I have on LJ *shrugs*
[identity profile] rhube.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 09:39 am (UTC)
And hey! Thanks for introducing me to exactly the sort of lj comm I'd been unable to find!
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Mar. 10th, 2008 09:53 pm (UTC)
What, calufrax? Yes, it's fabulous: only been running for a little while, but it really feels like it's pointing people to things they wouldn't otherwise read, and leading to feedback, which makes people write more, and it's a lovely merry-go-round of fannish awesome. :D
lithrael: (Default)
[personal profile] lithrael wrote:
Apr. 16th, 2008 03:51 am (UTC)
*comes in late*

I usually mean to post things to Teaspoon when they are done being WIPs and then forget all about it. I meant to edit the Turlough one so it was paced a bit better and put it there but I keep not getting round to it cause it's such a hideous monster and really ought to be vetted by a saintly beta. Also I am going through a phase where I am being astoundingly embarrassed of all my naughty fics.

You have warped me forever, BTW, I got to listen to Exotron today and found myself not a little turned on by the tortured Davison argh's. Sigh.

Not that I'm actually complaining. Um.
[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com wrote:
Apr. 17th, 2008 12:09 am (UTC)
Ha! As if tortured Davison arghs being a bit sdmexy are anything to do with me! All his own work. :P